Curse

upier · Nov 16, 2008, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I don't believe you smashed anything.

Enjoy your PvE.

First of all - it's PvP.
It just the kind of PvP that doesn't matter. That's why people confuse it with PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Everyone just needs to learn NOT to try out 'interesting' or 'fun' bars, and just play to win. So that means bringing anti-bonder skills (SPRITS, NOT ENCHANT STRIPS), bringing caster shutdown, and bringing huge spike damage. With that, there's really no excuse for losing other than people doing it wrong.

There is a reason why I stopped bringing spirits ages ago.
Immobile, low-hp/armor thingies, with 5 sec casts, 60 recharge, that need to be activated next to the wall (thus in aggro range of the of the bonded ele (who'll take them down in a few hits)) to hurt the monky the most but even then he can still run back a bit and activate Blessed there OR he can just rely on getting the energy from Balths which he'll get from all the suckers that will wand the ele.
Or he'll just get some ele on his team to nuke them.
Seriously - don't bother with spirits.

But once again - you've pretty much lost by default if you have weapon mastery guys on the Luxon side. Because by going weapon mastery you rely that the foe will be more stupid then you in order to win or that random people on your team will do your job.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

Also, for those who say physicals suck, the objective of this map is to kill three, non kiting NPCs. Hmm maybe either an assassin infinite DBign or a warrior going in Dragon Slash might be a good idea there. Just have to have the backup.

The problem for physicals is GETTING to those 3 non-kiting NPCs.

Luminarus · Nov 16, 2008, 08:53 AM // 08:53

I went kurzick for 5 rounds just to see, and each time we held out real easy. I monked the left side (kurzick pov), and had a basically woh hybrid. No bonding. Yes, with enchant removal and all that they could drop them. My point was that I could delay them enough that when they finally managed to get into the main fort, there was like 3-4 minutes left before kurz won. AND I could still prot up the green gate NPC's.

And at the people saying that when luxons are winning they can get 2 or 3 games in for each kurzick victory. Well I say that wen we are losing, we still take the same time as you guys. Its now at most 2 games per 1 kurz, AND we only get half the faction for losing 1.2 or 1.5 that is awarded for winning (2.5k). Also, since ur time has been reduced, most of the time, kurzicks will get more points for losing then luxons will. TO get the same amount of points for a loss as the most luxons can get for a loss kurz need 67%. Not too hard. The only times I seen luxons win now is usually at about 80%. If you get rolled, you get out fast and go again, or you get more points for losing then the luxons do & can reroll faster since luxons losing takes the full time whilst kurzick losing takes less.

T. Drake · Nov 16, 2008, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmikau

And I can't really see any way JQ favors the Luxons, despite Kurzick losing all but once every time I played there.

For me it was the other way around. Bad luck I guess.

maraxusofk · Nov 16, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

the reason why i dont consider FA pvp is b/c theres no skill involved. like as lil skill as ra involves, at least it moves onto ta which requires some team coordination.

logically, i dont consider fa pvp because it doesnt take place in the zaishen isles. sure there are warps to those places from great temple, but it warps u out of the zaishen isles so meh.

Fay Vert · Nov 16, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

the reason why i dont consider FA pvp is b/c theres no skill involved. like as lil skill as ra involves, at least it moves onto ta which requires some team coordination.

There is no skill involved in any PvP, you just need to be a little better than the other team.

Every form of PvP has noobs in it and also good players, you can be a noob and still win, you can be a great player and still lose, it depends on who you are up against. Thus, its PvP.

In PvE there is a fixed bar for each area, if you aren't good enough to get over that bar then you lose, if you are then you win. Some areas of PvE require more skill than others.

Abedeus · Nov 16, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

There is no skill involved in any PvP, you just need to be a little better than the other team.

Being better = More skill. What else is considered "skill"?

Servant of Kali · Nov 16, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

My judgement after trying FA after update is this:

NOTE: Faction-wise, map is balanced if Luxons win 2/5 games or 3/7, as you wish. This is because Kurzicks need to wait for time to run out, while Luxons can win faster.

Battle #1

Outcome: DEFEAT!

(Luxons had whatever builds, Kurzicks has better ones from what I noticed)

Battle #2

Outcome: DEFEAT!

(6v8 battle, our monk quit in the very beginning, for no reason, and some demoralized player followed him)

Battle #3

Outcome: VICTORY!

(Kurzicks had one leaver in the beginning)

Battle #4

Outcome: VICTORY!

Battle #5

Outcome: VICTORY!

Battle #6

Outcome: VICTORY!

Score:
4 wins
2 losses

Not bad since everyone complains Luxon side is impossible to play ha?
Although, I'm not saying I would not have higher chance of winning on Kurzick side (didnt test it), but by no means is Luxon side unplayable.

Opinion: I enjoy it more as it is now. Battles are intensive and not unnecessarily stretched. The time is just about right.

My build:
Domination mesmer with Lingering curse as elite.

caym · Nov 17, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Say it with me:
People running weapon mastery classes on the Luxon side (OR casters that require a line of sight for their skills to hit) are trying to lose.

This is true, but it also reveals the real issue with this map. It is "designed" so that very specific classes and builds have huge advantages. Problem is that not everyone wants to play a bondage breaker or whatever. This map all but makes those people 100% useless except in limited circumstances. A balanced map wouldn't give an advantage based nearly strictly on build.

Having said that I can honestly say the largest problem isn't the lack of balance, but rather the lack of aggression from the Luxon side. Anyone who plays FPS games knows that aggression and coordination are what breaks an entrenched enemy. The concept is really no different in GW, just the weapons

When the gates do start to come down people need to be ready to get inside, but usually what happens is they stand outside the fort casting spells. Which completely stops any forward progress. Then the Kurz rangers start picking them off from the high points and pretty soon you find yourself outside the doors once again trying to breach the first line of elementalists.

HawkofStorms · Nov 17, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by caym

This is true, but it also reveals the real issue with this map. It is "designed" so that very specific classes and builds have huge advantages. Problem is that not everyone wants to play a bondage breaker or whatever. This map all but makes those people 100% useless except in limited circumstances. A balanced map wouldn't give an advantage based nearly strictly on build.

Oh what, like JQ? Pfft... yeah that worked

caym · Nov 17, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Oh what, like JQ? Pfft... yeah that worked

I didn't say I had an example of a GW map that fits the bill. Did I?

Skyy High · Nov 17, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

PvP - killing people is required
PvPvE - killing people is a distraction

That's the difference. In JQ, FA, and AB, if you're running around fighting players more than you're fighting the NPCs, you're doing it wrong. The best tactics in AB are specifically to run away from the big groups of enemy players and focus on the shrines. Similarly, in FA, the best tactic is to run in, smash gates, smash shrines, smash NPCs, and smash Gunther. Killing player monks is secondary and (most of the time) a distraction from the main goal; if you can strip the enchants off gunther and kill him before the monk re-prots him, do it; it's a lot easier than killing the monk and then watching him respawn right next to gunther 5 seconds later.

Servant of Kali · Nov 17, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by caym

This is true, but it also reveals the real issue with this map. It is "designed" so that very specific classes and builds have huge advantages. Problem is that not everyone wants to play a bondage breaker or whatever. This map all but makes those people 100% useless except in limited circumstances.

Your entire reasoning is flawed.

First, show me an area in GW where everything is balanced. GvG? Nope. HA? Nope, RA? Nope. PvE? Nope.

I don't understand what point then are you trying to make. Why does everyone need to fantasize and imagine fictionary downsides of Fort Aspenwood which don't exist?

Not everyone needs to play a bonder. Not everyone needs to play on one side all the time. I didnt. If i wanted to play bonder I played on kurzick side. If i wanted to play necro or mesmer I played luxon side (of course, exceptions exist). If i wanted to play ranger, I played kurzick side, and so I did with dervish as well. If i wanted to play with assassin i mostly played on luxon side since it was more fun (but works on kurzick side too).

Quote:

A balanced map wouldn't give an advantage based nearly strictly on build.

Wrong. Show me a SINGLE map which doesn't give advantage based on a build. Every map gives advantage to some build.

Fort Aspenwood simply increases strategic requirements when picking a build. This is not a downside. It's up side. It's a great thing. Fort Aspenwood is that - a fort. It's a battleground where you know what you expect - an invading army or digging trenches. Fort Aspenwood is for generals, not for pawns. Pawns bring 'whatever' to the battlefield and try to find a place where they are useful. Generals know what's useful even before the battle begins.

There is nothing wrong in having an advantage because you prepared better than someone else. It's a part of war. It's not like there are 10 random maps shuffling. Everyone knows what he can expect.

Generals win.
Pawns dont.

It's that simple. And it makes FA balanced. If pawns were winning as often as generals, it would be imbalanced.

caym · Nov 17, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Your entire reasoning is flawed.

First, show me an area in GW where everything is balanced. GvG? Nope. HA? Nope, RA? Nope. PvE? Nope.

I don't understand what point then are you trying to make. Why does everyone need to fantasize and imagine fictionary downsides of Fort Aspenwood which don't exist?

Not everyone needs to play a bonder. Not everyone needs to play on one side all the time. I didnt. If i wanted to play bonder I played on kurzick side. If i wanted to play necro or mesmer I played luxon side (of course, exceptions exist). If i wanted to play ranger, I played kurzick side, and so I did with dervish as well. If i wanted to play with assassin i mostly played on luxon side since it was more fun (but works on kurzick side too).

Wrong. Show me a SINGLE map which doesn't give advantage based on a build. Every map gives advantage to some build.

Fort Aspenwood simply increases strategic requirements when picking a build. This is not a downside. It's up side. It's a great thing. Fort Aspenwood is that - a fort. It's a battleground where you know what you expect - an invading army or digging trenches. Fort Aspenwood is for generals, not for pawns. Pawns bring 'whatever' to the battlefield and try to find a place where they are useful. Generals know what's useful even before the battle begins.

There is nothing wrong in having an advantage because you prepared better than someone else. It's a part of war. It's not like there are 10 random maps shuffling. Everyone knows what he can expect.

Generals win.
Pawns dont.

It's that simple. And it makes FA balanced. If pawns were winning as often as generals, it would be imbalanced.

A quick read through of your previous posts regarding FA over time makes it clear that no one will say anything to you that will make you believe there are issues with it. When people were complaining about it being unbalanced in favor of the Luxon's you said it wasn't. When they complain about it being favored towards the Kurz you say it isn't.

So apparently there's nothing wrong with the map and we should all just stop whining.

Trader of Secrets · Nov 17, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

yea they need to balance this some more, very little play on lux side

Skyy High · Nov 17, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by caym

A quick read through of your previous posts regarding FA over time makes it clear that no one will say anything to you that will make you believe there are issues with it. When people were complaining about it being unbalanced in favor of the Luxon's you said it wasn't. When they complain about it being favored towards the Kurz you say it isn't.

So apparently there's nothing wrong with the map and we should all just stop whining.

...yeah, pretty much. It's as balanced as it can possibly be; the only imbalances occur when people who have never played it before pull your team down. The only thing this change did was speed up the turnover of games, so now everyone gets faction faster (assuming, of course, that the luxons wouldn't leave a losing game). Really, if the luxons were going to win, they generally have face-stomped the kurzicks way before 5 minutes left. I've been in very few games where the kurzicks have held out to 75% or more and then lost.

Hyper.nl · Nov 17, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Play Savannah Heat ele and take Rend Enchants against bonds and you will own the Kurzicks in Aspenwood. Or just monk the turtles all the time.

Servant of Kali · Nov 17, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caym

So apparently there's nothing wrong with the map and we should all just stop whining.

Exactly!

Besides, Fort Aspenwood is not symetrical. I think that's obvious. And moreover, it does not have to be equally difficult for both sides. What does it need to have? FUN FACTOR. It needs to be fun. It needs to offer something that other PvP (or PvPvE) arenas don't have. And Fort Aspenwood does offer that.

Is Kurzick side 20% easier now?
Do Luxons get 20% more Faction even if they are losing more games than winning?

It doesn't matter, you can still win, and there is (at least for me) more satisfaction in winning on the side that everyone think will fail. Everyone who wants to play easy games can join Kurzick side. Everyone who wants to play for a challenge can join Luxon side now, just as before we joined Kurzick side.

There's nothing wrong with that. This map isn't about balance. I thought it has to be, but now I think it doesn't. It only needs to be fun for both sides. I play on both sides. It's fun on both sides.

Zabe · Nov 17, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

Play Savannah Heat ele and take Rend Enchants against bonds and you will own the Kurzicks in Aspenwood. Or just monk the turtles all the time.

The problem with this tactic is, that your damage can be still healed up. I have been playing FA more or less few days now, and I have been mostly running E/N with Gaze Of Contempt AND Rend Enchantments. The problem is, that sometimes you face a kurzick team with few bonders and healers, so, after using Gaze AND Rend, both of them, the target will get protted up fast.

Mostly the problem in FA lies behind the fact that there are leechers (a bit less than 1 for average every game on luxon side). On top of that, half of the team runs really bad bars, which leads that you cant kill NPC's or monks, because you lack damage.

On top of that, luxon side rarely has healers. So single ranger or ele can easily take down the turtles from the walls. Because most of the luxon players are either A, too stupid to kill the people at the walls or otherwise killing your turtle. Or B, they are running build or skills which cripple them, not only in this situation, but in whole map also.

And if someone argues in the lines of: 'I cant run my fun build anymore'. The point of FA is to win. You win by playing with good builds and playing decently. It doesnt mean you have to play with taste of blood in your mouth and be death serious. But dont spoil the fun of winning from others by jerking around with your dearest riposte warrior.

Could write a long story about the problems with FA but can't be bothered. The same bad people would still be playing the same bad bars and with same bad methods.

Wrath of m0o · Nov 17, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Its alot like RA..it depends on the players that determine who's going to win.
And when you have no monks..your basicly out of luck. We just lost because we had no healers, and the luxons just smashed right through, and no one would even help kill the monks or the turtles who were enchanted to high heaven. It depends on the players and whats on their skillbars and how they play the map.

FoxBat · Nov 17, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Fort Aspenwood is unique in being an completely asymetrical map. The goals of the two competing teams are completely different, as are each of their starting bases. It's no surprise that there would be serious imbalances here one way or the other that appear nowhere else in GW. (Well except AB, but that's imbalanced for a reason, and you get good faction compensation now.)